Ferran Delgado's picture
Posted by: Ferran Delgado | February 6, 2013

How old...

It was done at the same age than FF #73. If Kirby had received a better treatment from Lee and the new owners of the company, we'd enjoyed the Forth World at Marvel scripted by Lee himself. What a loss!

Anonymous's picture
Posted by: Anonymous (not verified) | February 9, 2013

Fourth World at Marvel

It wasn't a loss that the Fourth World wasn't scripted by Lee, the loss was that Kirby couldn't take advantage of using the Marvel brand that he helped build to sell his epic to the readers. It would have made the difference between being able to complete the story or having it cut short, as happened at DC.

patrick ford's picture
Posted by: patrick ford | February 17, 2013

1966-1968-1970

If the Fourth World books had been launched at Marvel in 1970 it's very likely Lee wouldn't have written them anyhow. Lee had relented and was allowing Kirby to write the published captions and dialogue on some stories, and Lee basically quit writing for Marvel not very long after Kirby left for DC. If a person gives Lee the benefit of the doubt and thinks he quit writing (Thor, the FF, Spider-Man) because he had other things he wanted to pursue then why would Lee have stuck around to write the Fourth World? When Lee was asked about the Fourth World characters by Roy Thomas, Lee said he couldn't remember if he saw them or not, and if did he must not have liked them and rejected the ideas.

kc_tobyjoe's picture
Posted by: kc_tobyjoe (not verified) | February 6, 2013

Kirby musings

This probably is not the right place to offer my opinions since only so many will read...I wish I had the CASH to buy some ORIGINAL Kirby art but am getting pages another way
A shame the KING is gone...and I had an idea that could have made Marvel a MINT when he was still with us.
They could call these 'editions' whatever they'd like but have Kirby re-draw in his 'present' style all the #1 or origin issues he did like FF; Hulk; Iron Man; etc
They could have been sold as limited edition numbered sets and gone for a mint
Alas; it can never be :-(
It would be NICE to own an FF#1 but when you look at Jack's pencils from that time period...PERSONALLY I liked what he did much later in his career and (dare I say) refined his pencils. Royer or D Bruce Berry as the inkers of course!!!

Mark Evanier's picture
Posted by: Mark Evanier (not verified) | February 6, 2013

Correction

Inked by Don Heck. And colored by Jack.

Tom Kraft's picture
Posted by: Tom Kraft | February 6, 2013

Re: Correction

Corrected. Thanks Mark. Interesting how this was inked by Heck while the Orion piece was inked by Frank Giacoia (http://www.whatifkirby.com/gallery/comic-art-listings/new-gods-issue-1-c...)

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 6, 2013

Really--?

Seriously? This looks like Giacoia to me. I don't ever recall seeing smooth inking like this from Don Heck.
But if Mark Evanier says so--well I don't know.

Chrissie_H's picture
Posted by: Chrissie_H | February 6, 2013

It's Giacoia or Heck

It's Giacoia or Heck imitating Giacoia, whichever seems more likely.

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | February 6, 2013

Aaaargghh!!!

Here we go again! No way this is Heck! It's Giacoia, dammit!!

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 6, 2013

Agreed.

Knew it was a matter of time for Johnny S. to chime in.

Seems like Deja Vu, doesn't it Johnny?

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | February 6, 2013

Deja Vu

You said it, Frank!

Mark Evanier's picture
Posted by: Mark Evanier (not verified) | February 7, 2013

Jack told me that Don Heck

Jack told me that Don Heck inked this one...and also the Orion one and several others in this series, and Don Heck confirmed it. If you saw the originals, you'd see that they were inked by Don.

Jack did a bunch of these presentation drawings all at around the same time. There was one of Darkseid which he inked himself and one of Metron that he inked and maybe one or two more...but the ones Jack didn't ink were inked by Don. None of them were inked by Giacoia.

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | February 7, 2013

Heck vs. Giacoia

The thing that's interesting here though is that the linework looks so much more like Giacoia's than Heck's. It's tighter and more uniform in weight (thickness) throughout the figure than Heck usually did. It looks slicker and more controlled, as Giacoia would do it. The Norse figures in the GODS portfolio really look like Heck's inking to me, with strong contrasts between thick, brushed outlines and very fine pen lines for the detail work. But even the folds in the clothing and the general style of the feathering on this figure look more like Giacoia's technique than Heck's -- to me at least. Oh well, maybe if I saw the original, as you mentioned, it would change my opinion. And if this is Heck's work, he sure did a heck of a job on it!

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | February 7, 2013

What the Heck?

Let's be Frank.

I know I'm late to the party but, with all due respect to Mark Evanier, I have to disagree with him.
This is obviously Frank Giacoia's brushwork!

There must be some confusion with another set of characters design that Heck, indeed, inked for Kirby:
Heimdall, Honir, Sigurd and Balduur.

Jack's Communicators Unlimited released them, as a set of 4 full color posters under the title: Jack Kirby's GODS.
I just have to glance at the plates and compare with the other characters inked by Giacoia to tell the obvious.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 7, 2013

Heck of a puzzle

These are very large drawings and when I zoom in I see techniques that don't seem like Giacoia--like the line work in Lightray's face. The approach of the contour line work how the line from the back stops at the belt--that seems like Heck. Even with the way the line work is rendered in the belt seems the way Heck would do it. I see some feathering and frayed line work that is in question if that would be Giacoia's approach.

Is it possible it is a work started by Giacoia that Heck finished?--or--is the scale size of the work such that Heck used a very light touch and did some great brush work reminiscent of Giacoia?

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | February 7, 2013

No Frank, Einstein! Just Frank.

That's pure Giacoia, Frank!
Just compare wiith the other Fourth World Pin Ups like Lightray and you will notice (but you already did) that they share the same line work and brush techniques.

Frank Giacoia had a really fine technique, far subtler that most people will give him credit for.
When inking Kirby, he was adjusting his technique to Jack's powerful pencils with bold heavy strokes but my guess is that he treated those Pin Up jobs more like illustrations and went for a slightly different approach to match the subject.

Jack and Frank are the best!

KISSfan64's picture
Posted by: KISSfan64 (not verified) | February 9, 2013

the pointless debate over inkers

Holy crap on a cracker... all the Giacoia zealots just plain refuse to accept that Jack knew who he paid to ink his artwork and would then pass on that false knowledge to M.E.? C'mon...a trained monkey...hell even an untrained one could see the lines are not Frank's work. How soon before you decide all the work attributed to Royer is actually Giacoia, too? Just makes me wanna scream "GLLEEEAARRGH!!!" *ahem*

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | February 9, 2013

First troll on Wik

Cheers!

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 9, 2013

re:the pointless debate over inkers

Okay--you come on here with your subject title and YOU throw out a debate over inkers. Where's this Royer/Giacoia mistake. Point out the pages where Royer was given credit for what Giacoia did. You obviously have the trained eye here so help us out so we can get it right.

I've been studying this stuff for years and when looking at this pic this is a technique that Don Heck did not apply. Studying it more closely since this debate started I'm realizing it is not Giacioa. The line is too deliberate and doesn't have that Giacoia spontaneity and flow. Also when zooming in on the face of Lightray the lines on the nostril are thin pen lines triple stacked and that seems to be a technique of Heck.

Krackles makes a good point here about Giacoia;
When inking Kirby, he was adjusting his technique to Jack's powerful pencils with bold heavy strokes but my guess is that he treated those Pin Up jobs more like illustrations and went for a slightly different approach to match the subject.
BUT--the same could be said about Don Heck.

You are right of course, KISSfan64--Jack should know whom he paid for the work--but Jack has also been known to have a bad memory on some of this stuff. That's why the debate--we know the Heck stuff we saw of the other GODS pin ups inked by him. Some of us just thought that Jack was confusing the 2 separate projects.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 9, 2013

Oh, btw--just because I've

Oh, btw--just because I've been studying this stuff of Jack's for years doesn't mean I get it right every time. I'm still learning.

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | February 9, 2013

Troll on the Stroll

Frank, no need to apologize to the troll.
We do the best we can in fair debates and none of us pretend to be Mister Perfect like the troll.

We can be proved right or wrong because that's the essence of a debate.

PS: I wonder if I can blame all this on Colletta?

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | February 9, 2013

Gods, Trolls and Inkers

How 'bout this: we can compromise and say that neither Giacoia nor Heck inked any of them. They were all done by Vinnie!

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | February 9, 2013

Heck of a Wreck

No way, Vinnie would have rolled all over Kirby pencils like a loose wagon.

_OM_'s picture
Posted by: _OM_ | April 24, 2013

RE: Blaming Colletta

...Of course we can always blame conbefuddlements like this on Colletta. There's just some moving targets in the shooting gallery that are always easy to hit. Low points, but at least you hit something on the first shot :)

:OM:

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | April 24, 2013

Swing Low, Sweet Target!

I agree that to hit such a target, you need to aim low… very low.

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | February 9, 2013

To Don a Frank Check on Heck!

Before the troll intrusion, John and Frank comments already had cast some doubt on my first opinion. After zooming in on certain areas like the face, with closer examinations, I, too, noticed that the flow of the thiner lines show some slight hesitations uncharacteristic of Giacoia's confident approach.

So, I'm on par with Frank's own perception —
"The line is too deliberate and doesn't have that Giacoia spontaneity and flow" — and that — "the same could be said about Don Heck" — since, as John noted earlier, — "if this is Heck's work, he sure did a heck of a job on it!"

On a fair general study, this drawing definitely appears like Frank Giacoia's work and without Mark timely input we probably could have missed the mark (pun intended) in an honest Wik debate.

Nobody's perfect!

Damn, Heck sure did his best Giacoia impression and, above everything else, it's quite simply a gorgeous illustration!

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 9, 2013

Ulik holy crap on a cracker.

I'm confused--where did I apologize? I was giving an explanation and was trying to be polite and have the proper attitude--but probably threw that away with this subject title. That's what I thought of when you said troll.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 9, 2013

re:Gods, Trolls and Inkers

Vinnie doing his Giacoia impression. Nyuk, nyuk. That's me doing my Curly impression.

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | February 9, 2013

Lol.

Poor Vinnie. The abuse he takes--!

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | February 9, 2013

Crossing the Thin Black Line

Still way below the abuses Kirby's pencils took from his ugly black dripped brisk imitation of an old dirty broom!

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 9, 2013

Heck if I know

Mark--I apologize to you if I caused any offense and didn't take your word for it from the start. But you can see for yourself why we may have thought it was Giacoia.

This is not typical Don Heck inks that we have grown accustomed to from the other Gods pin ups along with Captain America, Thor, Tales of Asgard, Iron Man and Antman, among other Kirby stories inked by Heck.

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | February 9, 2013

Mark my Words, Evanier!

We showed respect to Mark in giving an honest opinion based on our best judgment.
Even more, we acknowledged our mistake! Isn't it the greatest Mark of respect (pun intended)?

I actually consider Mark has a debt of honor towards us now!

KISSfan64's picture
Posted by: KISSfan64 (not verified) | February 9, 2013

eesh...

So because I dared to call you out on the sheer arrogance of not only doubting Jack's word, but Don's as well AND then Mark's, to boot, I'm a troll? We all know Jack's history of wonky memory, so that's not an issue, but we also don't know when Jack told Mark who did the work, not to mention once again that Don, himself, stated he did the work, backing up Jack's statement. Add to that the fact that it is arguable that M.E. has seen more of Jack's work in progress and completed than anyone we all know, which makes him *far* more reliable when it comes to being able to discern who inked what.

Yes, based on the posts of last few years, I realize some of you are very capable of being able to pick an inker out of a lineup and I don't discount that one bit. But what I've also noticed as that for some of you, it seems every time there is a piece which comes up and there is a question of who inked it you go into Giacoia overdrive, almost to the point of being like Ernest Angley in your overzealousness and it really does detract from the general flow.

Before you bring it up, no I don't think M.E's memory is infallible, he's made mistakes before, but none that I can remember where it came to knowing who's inks are over Jack's when he's had his hands on the artwork and/or been told by the King, himself, as well as the person who Jack says did the work, that they did it.

...End of line

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | February 9, 2013

Start of Lame

You got a problem with Giacoia in particular or just with anybody else?
Because, you know, your anger doesn't really make sense.

I guess misreading us for years must have taken its toll on you.
That would explain this very sorry state of yours.
You sound pretty tense… Try to relax, catch a little breath too, you may discover it's good for your brain.

As for overdrive, pick up a better target next time, like Vince Colletta, you may find more ground and I'm always eager to touch on the subject.

Oh, and buy yourself some humor if you can afford, you take this too seriously instead of showing and sharing your passion for Kirby art, like all the regulars posters on Wik.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 9, 2013

C'mon now...

...it's not all that serious. We just like to get it right if we can.

Honestly--if it wasn't told to us it was Don Heck would you have recognized this piece as being inked by him? This is not the technique we grown accustomed to from Heck. He has taken a totally different approach on this and the Orion piece. At first it seemed to be hear say and bad memory, but once Mark himself put it out there that got us looking more closely and we corrected ourselves.

As far as Giacoia, there have been pieces inked by John Vepoorten that had been mistaken for Giacoia. I really can't see why offense is being taken to this.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 10, 2013

Hmm...

Not sure who wrote this a few months ago--but could this be somebody talking out both sides of their face? My apologies Anonymous if you are not whom I think you are.

The New Gods, Issue 1, Cover Pinup
27 weeks 12 hours ago | Posted by: Anonymous (not verified)
Giagoia ususally = Meh.

Giacoia's inks always look flat, uninspired...boring. Rarely have they appeared to me to have any life whatsoever. Yeah, yeah... "Jack loved Frank.." blah blah blah. He also loved Thibodeaux and Theakston and I don't know of any sane person who loves Jack's artwork, thinking either of them were any good.

That said, until I saw this piece close up, I had always accepted as gospel, that it had been inked by Don Heck, since M.E. is rarely incorrect in his reccollections. Upon closer look via Zoom, its easy to see Frank's style, especially on the trunks and fingers. This, i think, is the only time in history, where I can say Giacoia's work doesn't make me ill.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 10, 2013

re: Hmm

Okay...let's just say this isn't YOU (which it may not be). But this guy doesn't care for Giacoia as YOU don't seem to. This guy here--is doubting M.E. (this guy abbreviates Mark Evaniers name as YOU do) and his recollections and memory. His doubt makes him inspect the piece in question.

This guy here had the same doubts and questions as Krackles, John S. and myself had and took a closer look like we did. This guys conclusion--Frank Giacoia. There's that trained eye for you. It is an understandable mistake though. We've seem to of made it also.

Ours after WE took a closer look because of our doubts see it is not Frank Giacoia. But it took checking and double checking to come to that conclusion. And I venture to say--these pieces are sooo not Don Heck's style that a little doubt still lingers...just a little.

Chrissie_H's picture
Posted by: Chrissie_H | February 10, 2013

Frank's inking was much more

Frank's inking was much more heavy-handed in the '70s and '80s but I think you'll find some similar double-pen flicks on Jed's face in zoom on this piece...
http://www.whatifkirby.com/gallery/comic-art-listings/sandman-issue-1-cover
We're mostly used to seeing the art in print so tiny things like that will bleed together invisibly.
The way the face is inked otherwise, strikes me as very FG. Sometimes Kirby's faces came out a bit dummy-like when he inked them.
The way the slash on Lightray's butt is interpreted, for instance -- who else inked it quite like that?

Rand compiled them here ages ago.
http://kirbymuseum.org/gallery/v/Gods/
Heck ones that are certain stick out like a sore thumb. That's the difficulty. Sigurd, Balduur, Heimdall, Honir, Black Sphinx, "Enchantra" -- also that black dude who was on a TJKC cover not so long ago -- all scream Heck from the rooftops. The Lightray piece throws up some ?!?! if looking close, but... Captain Glory? Really? Look at the Space Guardian on pg2 of that gallery. FG? He's even given him the JK-FG "Cap Cleft" and the rendering on the fists is unmistakeable. So to say Frank never went near these pieces...? This issue is not solved by any means. Why would Heck ink some pieces *exactly* -- screamingly -- like Don Heck yet others... the only conceivable traces can be sort-of found under a magnifying glass? Heck's inking was fairly consistent, it seems to me.

Who else but Don Heck could have inked this?
http://kirbymuseum.org/gallery/v/Gods/Heimdall.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsInd...
It's so obvious you could spot it at postage-stamp size.

I'm giving this one a *shrug*.

Chrissie_H's picture
Posted by: Chrissie_H | February 10, 2013

http://kirbymuseum.org/galler

http://kirbymuseum.org/gallery/v/Gods/RobotDefender.jpg.html?g2_imageVie...

Frank or Don? Did Don ever ink the slashes and the hands in this way? Is there a single completely verified Heck example supporting this? If we have one FG example amongst these then the 'Don inked them all apart from the three JK inked himself' idea is dead in the water -- no?

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 10, 2013

Back and Forth

Chrissie o Chrissie--you got me second guessing myself again. You make a great argument. I'm still not convinced it's Heck.

Krackles's picture
Posted by: Krackles | February 10, 2013

Back on Track

You make some valid points Chrissie.

I would add that it wasn't uncommon for professionals of that era to go for uncredited helping hands when needed.
Also, Giacoia inked quite a lot of Heck's pencils work in the 60's and 70's.

Another thing to consider, Frank Giacoia notoriously had a soft spot for inking Kirby so, would it be surprising if he took an opportunity to ink these gorgeous Kirby's illustrations on behalf of Don Heck?

Do we know if Don and Frank were close enough for switching assignments?

I'm still torn between inks that scream Giacoia, some puzzling stylistic deviances and Mark Evanier usually well informed affirmation.
This case, indeed, seems far from being closed.

Chrissie_H's picture
Posted by: Chrissie_H | February 10, 2013

Well, it's also worth adding

Well, it's also worth adding that Frank makes perfect sense as someone Kirby would ask. More sense than Don, really. We know Kirby DID ask guys he was working with who he'd meet in the offices -- Ayers, when Wood left Sky Masters -- who had just started inking some of the monster stuff and presumably JK liked the results okay... Stone on Jack Ruby and Capt Nice during the time he was inking a lot of Kirby stuff... Sinnott never got asked, but, he was Upstate and seldom visited the office. They didn't meet until 1972. Frank and Jack has been friendly since the 1950s and worked together before briefly. At this time FG was inking Cap regularly. Also at this time, Don inked a single Cap story (I think he only inked Kirby stories two or maybe three times -- there was also an Iron Man story a couple years before -- anything else?). They're both good candidates for an informal request from Kirby, anyway. And perhaps it also makes sense that Kirby would ask more than one person instead of dumping a pile of stuff onto the desk of a single guy (who happened to be working for a living; neither were noted for Kirby-style Speed Demon output). It doesn't contradict Kirby recalling having asked Don to ink some presentations; nor does it contradict Don recalling same. This is clearly true. Specific credits are the foggier issue. We have seven pieces here that Don inked -- no doubt about it whatsoever... also a Cap pinup from around the same time which was on Heritage a couple of years ago -- undoubtedly Heck. So he did eight, at minimum.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 10, 2013

Don also inked of Jack's

Don also inked of Jack's stories a couple of Antman stories from Tales to Astonish, Iron Man, Tales of Asgard and maybe a couple of more.

Krackles, I was wondering the same thing about Giacoia and Heck working together. Maybe even shared some studio space.

Chrissie_H's picture
Posted by: Chrissie_H | February 11, 2013

Also, here's an interesting

(Bad guesswork!)

Chrissie_H's picture
Posted by: Chrissie_H | February 10, 2013

Oh, that's right! Blanking on

Oh, that's right! Blanking on those others totally. How could I forget ToA?!

Chrissie_H's picture
Posted by: Chrissie_H | February 11, 2013

... (*I had it in my head

...
(*I had it in my head Kirby inked three? It's just Darkseid and Metron though, right?)

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 10, 2013

Believe so...

(*I had it in my head Kirby inked three? It's just Darkseid and Metron though, right?)

I believe that is correct--I can't think of any other.

John S.'s picture
Posted by: John S. | February 10, 2013

The third one Kirby inked...

...was Night Glida/Glider, which Topps used in the '90s. I'm not sure when it was done, but it was related to the others by virtue of the fact that the character was used for the Secret City Saga comics, along with Bombast and Captain Glory.

Frank Fosco's picture
Posted by: Frank Fosco | February 10, 2013

What is the list of characters...

...in these promo pieces?

Orion
Lightray
Mantis
Mister Miracle
Metron
Darkseid

Who am I missing?

Chrissie_H's picture
Posted by: Chrissie_H | February 10, 2013

Night Glida appears to be an

Night Glida appears to be an all-new 1983 piece and was inked by Thibodeaux. Thib also reinked the Bombast and Glory pieces around this time -- those are the versions Topps used a decade later.... no evidence Glida existed before '83 though...

Hah. List of characters. Realise I just made a crap-out of the number as Bombast is also missing from that gallery... well, it was an interesting thought...

Let's try it. My own inking credit ideas, allowing for vagueness on Lightray...

Orion (FG)
Lightray (FG or DH?!)
Mantis (FG)
Mister Miracle (FG)
Metron (JK)
Darkseid (JK)
Captain Glory (FG)
Bombast (FG)
Sigurd (DH)
Balduur (DH)
Heimdall (DH)
Honir (DH)
Black Sphinx (DH)
Enchantra (I think someone made this name up) (DH)
Robot Defender (FG)
Space Guardian (FG)
Captain American pinup (DH) (tossed it for good measure)
Black Guy (who IS this? I forget) (DH)

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